Posts by Cold Steel

39

The Real History of Mormonism - Outstanding Lecture

by cofty in

if you think the mormon church is off-the-scale crazy you probably don't know the half of it.. the historical information in this talk by david fitzgerald is fascinating.

the good news is that, just like the watchtower, their growth is being stunted by the internet.. grab a coffee and be amazed at just how gullible millions of people can be.. lucy harris has become my new heroine.

don't miss the section from 8:50.

Cold Steel

Why would God or Maroni need these plates back? Why didn't they leave them if God wanted believers?

Actually those aren't bad questions. But first, if Smith was telling the truth he was not a fraudster, right? So why did the angel take the plates back? First, about two-thirds of the plates were sealed (see Isaiah 29:11-14; 18-21) and Smith wasn't permitted to translate them or even look at them. Also, the Lord, for whatever reason, doesn't ever provide anyone with proof until they have built an adequate foundation of faith. Evidence, yes, but definitive proof, almost never. (See reply to Cofty below.) Had Smith produced the plates for all to see, would that have proven his translation correct? No, all it would have proven was that he was in possession of an ancient artifact, and a valuable one at that. And do you believe he would have been able to keep them? How about the man upon whose land Smith found them? Wouldn't he have claimed a right to them? “After all, ol' Joe Smith found them on my land! He only came up with that 'translation' after he found them on my property!“ The stone box was still intact on the hill as well as the large rock covering it. Some of the early saints reported seeing them for some time and said they were there for all to see. But of course anyone could have constructed such and no one would have been the wiser.

Finally, if we had the plates today for all to see, would you become a Latter-day Saint? Something tells me you would simply find another objection.

Cofty: I thought the video was fascinating and informative. Your cult is crazier than the Watchtower.

So what you're saying is, “I care not what the truth is, I choose to believe it anyway!“ Joseph Smith said, “It is true [that men ] have eyes to see, and see not, but none are so blind as those who will not see.“ He also said that anyone can have proof if it is built on a foundation of faith, prayer and seeking. “And thus by learning the Spirit of God and understanding it,“ he said, “you may grow into the principle of revelation, until you become perfect in Christ Jesus.“ Thus, any person can attain the visions and power that Joseph Smith, Moses or any prophet who ever lived. “God hath not revealed anything to [me], but what he will make known unto the Twelve, and even the least Saint may know all things as fast as he is able to bear them....“

Believe what you will, then; you are only limiting yourself.

39

The Real History of Mormonism - Outstanding Lecture

by cofty in

if you think the mormon church is off-the-scale crazy you probably don't know the half of it.. the historical information in this talk by david fitzgerald is fascinating.

the good news is that, just like the watchtower, their growth is being stunted by the internet.. grab a coffee and be amazed at just how gullible millions of people can be.. lucy harris has become my new heroine.

don't miss the section from 8:50.

Cold Steel

Cofty, you never cease to amaze me. When people misrepresent atheism, you're the first to get your shorts in a knot. Now you post an absurd, amazingly inaccurate and inflammatory video where atheist David Fitzgerald, through blatantly false information and misrepresentation, carefully constructs a strawman for his audience, then knocks it down without a thought as far as accuracy is concerned.

Much of his “history“ is taken from early anti-Mormon books and later discredited as ridiculously lurid, sensational and of highly questionable pedigree. The only real grain of truth is the 1826 Bainbridge judgment against Smith, which is probably why Fitzgerald started off with it. But nearly every point he made he was wrong on. Smith's arrest, according to the report, was made on the oath of the son of his employer, Josiah Stowell, who was delighted with Joseph's work (which consisted mostly of physical labor). Two, the report was found by an avowed enemy of the church and someone who claimed a doctorate he didn't have. And three, the document never could be verified as genuine (and if genuine, it was the only surviving record recovered at the court). Wesley Walters, author of Kingdom of the Cults and the “discoverer“ of the record, said he believed God's hand was in the fact that one record survived. Do you buy that Cofty? More information can be found at:

http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/fair-conferences/2002-fair-conference/2002-the-1826-trial-of-joseph-smith

The quickest way to get laughs is to build one's strawman out of material that's built on lies, then ridicule it in the hopes that others won't check your sources too closely. One problem for anti-Mormons is that everything Joseph Smith taught was carefully recorded by educated recorders or found in multiple journals.

“In the mouth of two our three witnesses shall every word be established.“ Finding one account in one journal, like many of the sources your friend Fitzgerald does, or finding them in a book that references old anti-Mormon books that, worse, based them on affidavits collected by early anti-Mormon books, makes fine material for strawmen, but it's hardly scholarly.

But then, that audience really wasn't there for scholarly purposes, were they?

11

the GB stole my idea

by user100 in

so in the early 90's when i was about to get baptized the elder asked me a million questions and one of them was: .

who is the faithful and discreet slave?.

my answer:.

Cold Steel

What happens if/when members question this doctrine? Does it ever come up in public meetings or is this the type of question that gets you quickly escorted from the premises? It's a fair question, though.

6

The term elder should be lowercase not capitalized

by Jay Elle in

for some reason ever time i see term, "elder" capitalized i feel like correcting it.

they do not deserve that capital letter.

they are lowercase as a breed.

Cold Steel

Objectively, the term “elder“ is an office. As such, when you speak of such a person, you can lower case it unless it's used with a name. So it would be proper to say, “Elder Gogetter will be over for dinner on Wednesday.“ But it's okay to say, “I understand the elders have been encouraged to look for apostate literature when visiting the homes of members.“

22

You are invited to sit down with the GB members..

by James Mixon in

you have the opportunity to sit and discuss what's on your mind.. what would you tell them??.

my question, do you men have a heart, how do you sleep at nights??.

why do you think jehovah pick you to feed the sheep??.

Cold Steel

The system is devised so that members cannot access the Governing Body members. The reason? Because they see their jobs as feeding and not being fed. Of all the questions so far, The Searcher, I think, asked the best. How, exactly, did God/Christ select them to be the faithful slave? I think it's the one question that scares them more than any other; and it most likely is ONE QUESTION they must sometimes ask themselves when no one else is around. Each GB member is a prophet to the people...modern day apostles who hope when bad times come that they will be given the light to lead their people to safety. But so far, the silence is deafening. Like the Zealot leaders on Masada, they wait for guidance from On High even as the Romans ready their massive siege engine and grappling hooks. Too late they discover that the light will not be forthcoming...that the promised Messiah is not going to save them. They then realize they are not the Sons of Light after all. It must be a difficult question to ponder. And by the way, what happens to expensive cars that are donated to Bethel? Are they sold or do the Lord's chosen ones use it?

9

The Adventures of JWCart and "I-Am-The-Cart" TWITTER, SOON! I will up-build you till you return to our Loving Organization!

by JWCart1975 in

i talked with my pusher, puller i mean, she's really pissed off i opened up a twitter account she's threatening to drive her car over my frame if i misbehave and more, so much for my point of view.

after much deliberation, we decided she could count her field service minutes only if people see my pretty logo (jw.org), finally she took me off the roof-rack and returned me to my right place, passenger side.

in the passenger's seat of our car, i smile at the homeless people walking the streets, "can we pull over and talk to them, can you buy them something to eat?

Cold Steel

Whatever you're on, man...I want some.

8

why cant I sign out?

by sowhatnow in

i cant sign out.

every time i come to the site, im already signed in i click sign out over and over again and it wont sign me out.. whats the secret, lol..

Cold Steel

To all of you folks who can't sign out, you apparently didn't read the fine print! You're here to stay until that day your minds do'st burst asunder, for then will hear, the hosts of men, the hoary tales of blunder! In other words, you're stuck here and unable to log out until...the end...the big A! You can never leave. The good news is that it's just around the corner!

28

If you're bothered by god murdering innocent children, you must have a "critical heart"

by OneEyedJoe in

this week's book study contains this gem:.

the way in which the bible is written serves to test what is in our heart.

hebrews 4:12 says: the word [or, message] of god is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit .

Cold Steel

Cofty: Your approval of infanticide is morally repugnant. You are a great advert for the cult of Mormonism.

I do not approve of infanticide. And even if I did, in your view it could not be morally repugnant because there is no God to set the standards of morality. Also, I am a great proponent of Mormonism. If there is no penalty or eternal consequence, there is no law. As the Book of Mormon prophet Alma wrote:

Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment? Now, there was a punishment affixed, and a just law given, which brought remorse of conscience unto man. ...if there was no law given—if a man murdered he should die—would he be afraid he would die if he should murder? And also, if there was no law given against sin men would not be afraid to sin. And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature? But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God. —Alma 42:17-22

If there is no God, then there can be no law; so where else can the law come? From men. But men aren't consistent in their laws or moral outlooks. In the Canaanite religions, it was okay to commit infanticide and to combine it with torture and to have orgies as part of the religious order. If there's no God, then the laws of men could be reprehensible to me, but A-Okay with our society. In either way, Cofty, what gives you the right to set the precepts of morality? Or to condemn the infanticide of the Canaanites? I could feed kittens to bulldogs and who could condemn it if I thought it was okay? The only way man instinctively knows right from wrong is through the Light of Christ, which is given to all men. And you condemn the author of that light which you misuse to judge God which is the greatest irony of your argument.

Godsend+: If God is all powerful, why doesn't He....?

Oh, yes, this is the card all atheists play to show that God is evil because He doesn't put an instant end to all suffering. One only need to read the scriptures to understand. God cannot and will not rob man of his free agency. No matter what happens on Earth, no power here can cause us permanent harm. We're here for a reason and must use our moral agency for either good or evil. "That every man may act in doctrine and principle...according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment." He cannot stop evil any more than Satan can stop good. "Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light." Thus, it is up to us to establish righteousness on the earth and if we fail to live up to that end, we are accountable, not God.

31

HOW EXACTLY does god communicate with or direct the GB?

by stuckinarut2 in

we're all familiar with the organisations claims (and have seen the flow diagrams in books and mags) that the gb is "directed by god".

in turn, the local elders are "directed by god".

so, how exactly do they suppose this happens?

Cold Steel

We're all familiar with the organisations claims (and have seen the flow diagrams in books and mags) that the GB is "directed by God." In turn, the local Elders are "directed by god." So, how exactly do they suppose this happens? Does one of the GB wake up in the middle of the night, have a brainwave thought, write it down, then discuss it with the rest of the GB next time they meet? Does a thought just pop into the heads of the local elders?...

Well, how did God communicate with His servants anciently? Before examining how they receive revelation, we need to ask about their callings. In the scriptures, God spoke to His servants through many methods. First, through theophanies (where God speaks directly to a person), angelic ministrations, actual vocal communications and then through the Spirit. But just because one sees an angel or hears a voice, this can be deception. That's why such experiences are combined with the witness of the Holy Spirit, which is impossible for the Adversary to duplicate.

The Governing Body today has emphatically declared that its members enjoy none of the above, except for possibly receiving inspiration through the Holy Spirit. But unless the Lord has taught one how to tell His spirit from that of the Adversary, trying to ascertain it would be difficult.

In the Society, the Lord never (ever) told them that He had chosen them in 1919, or any other year. They divined it through assumption. It's kind of like the preacher who presents his financial proceeds to the Lord and says, "Lord, if you want me to take half of this, declare it unto me!" Then, "Lord, if you want me to take the full amount, say nothing and thy will be done!" When nothing is said, the pastor cries, "Praise be unto the Lord!" and pockets the full amount.

In the case of Adventist Ellen G. White, she, at least, had a prophetic calling she said came from God. She would go into trances during which she reputedly could not be physically moved. She had a number of claimed visions and personal revelations, but they were never shared with anyone else in real time, neither did she leave a successor. The scriptures say that in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established, yet she had none.

The Watchtower Society, on the other hand, has zilch. No theophanies, no angelic ministrations, no ordinations or receptions of authority, no voices -- nothing. So excellent question. The most popular answer, however, is one of process of elimination. "Of course, Jehovah chose us. We mean, just look at everyone else! Do you see anyone else that has all this truth like we do? No, and that's because of the guiding hand of Jehovah, himself! Search the world and tell us if there's anyone else who worships Jehovah by name. None. Does anyone else have the perfect doctrines that we do? Again, none!"

That's not how it was done anciently. Either God speaks or He is silent. And it seems the GB is still waiting for Jehovah to speak. In the meantime, His representatives pronounce His light through inspiration. At the same time they say it's not revelation like the apostles received. Well, why not? Aren't we talking about one source?

Recently it seems that the members of the GB are expecting some first class guidance once things begin falling apart. But what did the Lord say about the blind guides leading the blind? They all fall into a pit.

19

Comment someone gave on Today's Watchtower re: great tribulation

by cappytan in

"we may get instructions that don't make sense or they may defy logic, but we must be obedient to the faithful slave if we want to survive.".

all i could think about was that these were the same kind of people that would have gulped down the kool aid at jonestown without hesitation.. pardon the language, but what the actual f**k?

even when i wasn't a doubter and bought in to the organization, it was always with a view to what was in line with scripture.

Cold Steel

Milking the flock one last time before flying to some resort with a luxury mansion?

I'll have you know that luxury mansion is for Elijah, Moses and the apostle John. The slave may stay on the premises until the three of them come. You know...to make sure the slave's slaves change the sheets and all. It did come as a shock that the three prophets are all expected to make their appearance at Malibu, but you never know about these things. We're not at the slave's pay grade and all. In addition, the holy men will be given their own luxury and sports cars, which the slave will maintain until their arrival.

The slave may also stay on site after the three holy men arrive, an advent one member of the Governing Body said wouldn't surprise him if it wasn't "invisible." The GB member, who wishes to remain anonymous, added, "So many wonderful events have happened in our era that rivals all the great and magnificent events that happened in the days of the prophets and apostles. That they're all invisible in our day shouldn't matter to the faithful. Jehovah has established 'the Truth,' chosen the Society from among all Christian churches as His and has enthroned our Lord and Savior, Michael the Archangel -- Jesus to you -- in the heavens. And most significantly, He has given His organization to this wicked system of things, of which we're grateful to be a part."